Curse

Eet GnomeSmasher · Feb 24, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

This thread is hilarious for the things people say that they want nerfed. I'll let you decide what I'm talking about. There really is very little that needs to be nerfed... and even then it's just so borderline that it's not a big deal.

I see more buffing than nerfing in ANET's plans. And for you people that are so quick to call nerf....try the skills first. Then try to put some thought in how to counter it...not just by skillsets but strategy too.

Loralai · Feb 24, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

It is their responsibility to maintain an equal playing field. Part of their responsibility also comes in freshening things up when the player-base's imagination has hit a monumental stale point. We are at that point.

As mentioned before, in Hero's Ascent there are IWAY teams, and teams built to punish IWAY. Maybe that's balanced to you, but 450 skills all being looked at to see how they can help or hurt an individual skill, "I Will Avenge You!" means that the playerbase has RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up in keeping things fresh. Note, it is not everybody's choice that Hero Ascent simply be "whoever beats the most IWAY teams", yet the flock of people with little skill, and absolutely 0 imagination and creativity, have turned it into that.

I can see this point and its validity, but there is one problem. As someone else pointed out, there is a just as large (if not larger) group of GW consumers/participants that do not partake in any PvP, or very little, but are just as "hardcore" into PvE as those aforementioned are into to "PvP."

But yet, they get "punished" so to speak because of what is going on in arenas they do not frequent. All of us know here, that no matter what they "nerf", "buff", or alter, there will be another build that steps right into its place and becomes the "OMG OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!" flavor of the month.

So why do PvE'ers have to pay the cost? In my opinion, if Anet's main goal is to maintain equaltiy in PvP, and their plan is to consistently alter skills in order to achieve that, then seperate the skills in some way.

thunderpower · Feb 24, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loralai

I can see this point and its validity, but there is one problem. As someone else pointed out, there is a just as large (if not larger) group of GW consumers/participants that do not partake in any PvP, or very little, but are just as "hardcore" into PvE as those aforementioned are into to "PvP."

But yet, they get "punished" so to speak because of what is going on in arenas they do not frequent. All of us know here, that no matter what they "nerf", "buff", or alter, there will be another build that steps right into its place and becomes the "OMG OVERPOWERED! NERF IT!" flavor of the month.

So why do PvE'ers have to pay the cost? In my opinion, if Anet's main goal is to maintain equaltiy in PvP, and their plan is to consistently alter skills in order to achieve that, then seperate the skills in some way.

IWAY is so popular and overused that it screws the PvP part of this game. For all those who argue about pve issues, just take a minute and think that there was a PvP championship and not a pve one. So pvp is just as important if not more important as pve.

GW has 450 skills not only because of pve but also because of pvp, some buffs and nerfs are based on both pve and pvp issues.

There is no reason to flame about skills being nerfed because of pvp, because pvp players can flame about skills that are being nerfed/buffed because of pve issues.

One more thing. Let's say iway is nerfed. How does that affect most pve players? It's an elite that can be capped almost at the end of the Profecies campaign. The other thing is that if let's say it will be reduced to only party dead members, that won't make such a big diffrence in pve. I don't think that anywhere in pve you will go with the same party build as in pvp.

Loralai · Feb 24, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

IWAY is so popular and overused that it screws the PvP part of this game. For all those who argue about pve issues, just take a minute and think that there was a PvP championship and not a pve one. So pvp is just as important if not more important as pve.

GW has 450 skills not only because of pve but also because of pvp, some buffs and nerfs are based on both pve and pvp issues.

There is no reason to flame about skills being nerfed because of pvp, because pvp players can flame about skills that are being nerfed/buffed because of pve issues.

One more thing. Let's say iway is nerfed. How does that affect most pve players? It's an elite that can be capped almost at the end of the Profecies campaign. The other thing is that if let's say it will be reduced to only party dead members, that won't make such a big diffrence in pve. I don't think that anywhere in pve you will go with the same party build as in pvp.

As far as IWAY goes, I'm indifferent. I don't use it, and I agree, it really would have no detrimental effect on PvE at all. What was starting to irk me were the multitudes of skills that were suddenly appearing as "overpowered" and the lack of thought as to effects changes would have on PvE.

If I came across as flaming, maybe I'm tired. I was merely trying to put a new perspective on the issue, as so many posters were adding skill after skill, labeling them as overpowered because of X build in HA, or because of something they saw in the playback of the GWWC.

As for your comment...
"There is no reason to flame about skills being nerfed because of pvp, because pvp players can flame about skills that are being nerfed/buffed because of pve issues."

This is why I suggested some sort of separation of the two. But I'm 99.999% sure that couldn't feasibly happen. Just a happy thought of a Utopian GW.

And for the record, I wasn't trying to purport that PvE>PvP. And umm..IWAY isn't an elite.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Feb 24, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

People are just nerf happy whenever they lose to a certain build... Just look at this thread or better yet, the one on GWOnline *shudder* and you'll see all kinds of skills being called out for a nerf.

Everyone thinks they know what's best for "balance" but they let their biases blind them. I'm not claiming that I know best either but I don't randomly call out for a nerf everytime I lose to a certain skill used by someone else.

XSniper · Feb 24, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

There are only 4 skills in the game that can remove all conditions. 2 of them being elites. Draw conditions is nice but doesn't really remove anything. Purge condition's recharge is too long to even think of ever using it. Plague sig can only remove the conditions from yourself and has a long cast time. That leaves the only valid option martyr.

So Mend Aliment, Mend Condition, Plague Touch, Plague Sending dont count as a condition removers?
Mend Aliment-5 energy-1 cast-2 recharge
Mend Condition(only casts on others)-5 energy-1 cast-2 recharge(I beleive)
Plauged Touch(trasfers to target foe)-5 energy-1/4 cast-Instand reload
Plague Sending(transfer to target foe and nearby foes)-10 energy-2 sec cast-2 reload I think Sacrafice 10% health

Personally I tihnk Plagued Touch and Mend Aliment are fine for PvP and Plague Sending is great for PvE(Like in SF)

Besides Marytr just transfer skills from party to caster.. so it isnt a removal from yourself.

Alana · Feb 24, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

The skill balance should be within a week or so, according to the Frog. I personally think many people in this thread have been correct in stating that IWAY will only work with party members now, instead of pets and minions. As to what else gets changed, we'll have to wait and see. I am personally hoping that someone from ANet read Ensign's wonderful post titled "Why Nuking Sucks" and gives some help to the Elementalists in some way.

And pardon me, but I have to say something about this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

One more thing. Let's say iway is nerfed. How does that affect most pve players? It's an elite that can be capped almost at the end of the Profecies campaign.

First of all, it's not an elite skill. And secondly, you can obtain it from Captain Greywind in the Ascalon settlement, which is nowhere near the end of the campaign. Not that it will effect PvE all that much, but it had to be said.

antialias02 · Feb 24, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

I'm mostly expecting to see ANet buff unused skills to shake up the metagame. I hope that's what they do. If you whittle away too long at a piece of wood that's supposed to be a work of art, all you get is sawdust.

thunderpower · Feb 24, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Stupid me

Does this proove i never played IWAY

?

Phoenix Ex · Feb 24, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I seriously doubt nerfing IWAY will solve any of the PVP staleness problem. Just think about all the previous overpowered FOTM builds (dual smite, spirits, air spike), that just shows people will ALWAYS go to the easy to make, easy to use build, even though IWAY's effectiveness is crap compare to the previous FOTM. I can almost guarantee after IWAY is gone another stale and boring build is going to take over (one build I have in mind is blood spike).

The REAL reason for these problems is the increasing discrimination against lower ranked players, combined with the lack luster group forming system, force the low rank players to use the most powerful easy build they can find in an attempt to get enough rank just to play PvP normally.

Mercury Angel · Feb 24, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by XSniper

So Mend Aliment, Mend Condition, Plague Touch, Plague Sending dont count as a condition removers?
Mend Aliment-5 energy-1 cast-2 recharge
Mend Condition(only casts on others)-5 energy-1 cast-2 recharge(I beleive)
Plauged Touch(trasfers to target foe)-5 energy-1/4 cast-Instand reload
Plague Sending(transfer to target foe and nearby foes)-10 energy-2 sec cast-2 reload I think Sacrafice 10% health

Personally I tihnk Plagued Touch and Mend Aliment are fine for PvP and Plague Sending is great for PvE(Like in SF)

Besides Marytr just transfer skills from party to caster.. so it isnt a removal from yourself.

The previous post was referring to skills that remove multiple conditions at a time, not single condition removal.
You can't combat something like Cripple from Crippling Shot quickly because people cover it with Apply Poison, which is what I think it was addressing. Or not. In any case, there's obviously a misunderstanding here.

Alotia Slipfeet · Feb 24, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

i would really like to see called shot and quick shot switched in status. called shot becoming the elite and quick shot just becomes just a normal skill.

Angardel Morthond · Feb 24, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Nerfing the skill 'IWAY' isn't the solution. It's not that great of a skill, you can use Tigers Fury instead, and those 5 pips of health regen aren't great either. What make IWAY so 'great' is the use of 4 warriors, and the orders. You can easily run an IWAY team without the skill IWAY (well, that sounds a bit stupid, but whatever)

twicky_kid · Feb 24, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by XSniper

So Mend Aliment, Mend Condition, Plague Touch, Plague Sending dont count as a condition removers?
Mend Aliment-5 energy-1 cast-2 recharge
Mend Condition(only casts on others)-5 energy-1 cast-2 recharge(I beleive)
Plauged Touch(trasfers to target foe)-5 energy-1/4 cast-Instand reload
Plague Sending(transfer to target foe and nearby foes)-10 energy-2 sec cast-2 reload I think Sacrafice 10% health

Personally I tihnk Plagued Touch and Mend Aliment are fine for PvP and Plague Sending is great for PvE(Like in SF)

Besides Marytr just transfer skills from party to caster.. so it isnt a removal from yourself.

Those are single condition removers which do nothing when the deep wound is covered up and spammed over constantly. Deep wound is the first condition in the condition chains for axe and will be covered up instantly by axe rake or by a crip shot ranger. Soon as poison is reapplied it moves to the top of the chain being the first condition removed and then reapplied.

I did forget about restore conditions earlier because it sees very little play in GvG. Its almost never used alone as well due to energy cost. Usually used in combonation with martyr. I consider martyr condition removal because it does remove the conditions from your entire party for 5e. Compare that to draw conditions and that would have cost you 35e. Martyr will also get rid of any multiple copies of the same condition. It is condition removal just in a slightly different way.

The condition removal you are speaking of has very little affect on what conditions you remove. Conditions are always covered by a smart team. They work more in a sense of healing than removal. The condition you are most likely to remove is going to spammed so much you are not going to get to the condition that really matters.

No way should quick shot be reduced to normal skills status. Dual>quick>punishing would totally run this game if that were to happen. With 4 rangers doing Dual>punishing under dual orders is about 400+ dmg just from orders alone. Lets not add another 120 dmg to from orders alone to that chain.

Revivalizt · Feb 25, 2006, 11:37 AM // 11:37

IWAY shouldnt be nerfed cuz pet IS your ALLY
if pet isnt an ALLY then its your ENEMY !!

what should be nerfed is Dual Shot .. and make Water Ele have less recharge.

Desbreko · Feb 25, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alana

I am personally hoping that someone from ANet read Ensign's wonderful post titled "Why Nuking Sucks" and gives some help to the Elementalists in some way.

Same here. The AI update was great and all, but it really gimped a lot of the elementalist's best damage spells. I miss being able to rain down mass destruction with my fire ele. Now it seems like my ranger, running a barrage build, does better AoE damage.

Symbol · Feb 25, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Same here. The AI update was great and all, but it really gimped a lot of the elementalist's best damage spells. I miss being able to rain down mass destruction with my fire ele. Now it seems like my ranger, running a barrage build, does better AoE damage.

The AI update had very little to do with what Ensign was talking about. If it had never happened the elementalist would still need help.

Mavrik · Feb 25, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I could care less about all the "nerf!" cries but they always seem to make PvE skills suck afterwards. I am hardcore PvE and couldn't give a rat's a$$ about PvP but when is the last time someone in PvE cried for a nerf spell because it was to powerful? Never.

Anet needs to seperate the changes from PvE and PvP skills. Then people can cry "NERF" all they want for PvP and us PvE players can continue on without the headache of wondering whats going to suck for us next. I don't even need to go into detail about the AoE nerf.

Symbol · Feb 25, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

I could care less about all the "nerf!" cries but they always seem to make PvE skills suck afterwards. I am hardcore PvE and couldn't give a rat's a$$ about PvP but when is the last time someone in PvE cried for a nerf spell because it was to powerful? Never.

Really? Where's this long list of skills that were nerfed therefore making them suck in PvE?

Anet buffs far more often than they nerf.

calamitykell · Feb 25, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavrik

I could care less about all the "nerf!" cries but they always seem to make PvE skills suck afterwards. I am hardcore PvE and couldn't give a rat's a$$ about PvP but when is the last time someone in PvE cried for a nerf spell because it was to powerful? Never.

Anet needs to seperate the changes from PvE and PvP skills. Then people can cry "NERF" all they want for PvP and us PvE players can continue on without the headache of wondering whats going to suck for us next. I don't even need to go into detail about the AoE nerf.

I'm still waiting for Stone Summit to stop:

1) Swinging through my Empathy, thus killing themselves
2) Casting through my Backfire, thus killing themselves.

I guess that seems perfectly fine for you, eh? It's ok, not everybody likes a challenge; Some of us do.